Archive

@colinwalker the problem with the subscribe buttons have always been workflow. For non-nerds, it was not apparent what to do with it. Sometimes it would even just load the XML, or try to save the RSS file - and now browsers have dropped what support they did have for RSS.

@colinwalker The thing with RSS is what happens after you click the button. In Chrome, you get the XML feed. In Firefox a "Choose your reader" dialog. That's too difficult for casual visitors and non-tech people. Facebook/Twitter made it easy. Yay for silo-thinking on that part!

@frank @canion Absolutely! There needs to be a better, easier way to use the buttons before they become popular again. Social networks let you write and consume in the same UI, that’s why m.b works so well even though you are subscribing to a feed when following someone.

@colinwalker Grappled with that recently when I re-designed my site; ended up putting a “feed” link in the top right of the header. I’ve had three people ask me what that meant since then; subscribing to feeds definitely has fallen out of parlance.

@vasta It’s such a shame. There has to be a better way.

@vasta @colinwalker Google's initial attempts (i.e. when it was still in love with RSS - Reader days) did try to solve that. Especially Feedburner provided an easy to understand and follow interface.

@colinwalker @mrkrndvs Remember when all the apps supported RSS? Browsers, email clients, everything!

@colinwalker do you mean something like this boffosocko.com/2016/12/1... from @c

@mrkrndvs Not so much, more like what happens when you actually click on the subscribe button. As @canion said, now that feed support has largely disappeared from browsers many don’t know what to do with them.

@colinwalker Maybe what you're looking for is some sort of "open with" action. So while clicking the subscribe link, a popover or something would show up with the following content:

Subscribe with [Service Dropdown] Descriptive text

The dropdown menu would contain many RSS services (Feedly, Feedbin, FeedWrangler, etc) that the user could pick, then after doing that, you could take them directly to the selected service (if url scheme/api) was available.

As for the descriptive text, it would explain what RSS is and its benefit, possibility linking to some sort of documentation.

There has to be a better way to subscribe to sites. While RSS readers are making a bit of a comeback in certain quarters there's no doubt that, as Sameer puts it, "subscribing to feeds definitely has fallen out of parlance." It's not just that sites need subscribe buttons again, but that using them should not be akin to a dark art. As Dave initially said, echoed by Frank, the social networks have made following easy - reading, writing, following, it's all within the same UI. That's what makes micro.blog unique, it has that familiar social feel but you are actually invisibly subscribing to people's RSS/JSON feeds when following them. The timeline is a glorified feed reader with integrated posting and social elements. That's fine within the confines of a service like micro.blog but what about on the open web when hitting "follow" isn't handled for you? "Remember when all the apps supported RSS? Browsers, email clients, everything!" It used to be so much better but, even then, implementation differed. Chrome just shows us the XML, Safari lost its "subscribe" feature, Firefox seems more feed aware but it's all still unintuitive. Some platforms allow you to set your default feed reader to "open in" - others don't - but this still needs you to understand what feeds are, how they are consumed and choose a reader. There needs to be a way to handle subscriptions on the open web like following a person on a social network. But how? Any solution would require everyone to get on board with compatible options for what most see as an antiquated technology. Perhaps it needs something new. But what? Are browser developers going to reintroduce native subscription options? Doubtful.

@colinwalker I did the obvious thing: there is a big Subscribe button in the header with the classic RSS glyph. Some people know what to do with it, well, others don’t. It’s still better than writing manuals about how to subscribe to RSS. I’m not sure how we could solve this, but I remember it was a problem with indie blogs back in 2007 as well.

@mmarfil Are you sure you want users to make a choice between Feed readers? Most of them don't even know what they are, that's why RSS failed in the first place. I'd opt for a in-browser or in-phone solution. Kind of like Podcasts on iOS now.

@frank I hear you…

@mmarfil You're right, we need the support from the big boys. My experience with RSS has been that even explaining it makes it hard to start, understand ánd keep the usage up. I've written countless articles and gave presentations and workshops on it but it didn't help.

@frank but that's not something you can control. That's up to Apple, Google, Mozilla. What I suggested is a way to educate users and make it easier if you already use some of those services.

As for not knowing what RSS is, that's what the descriptive text is for. If you just put an RSS button there, you can't expect uncle Joe will understand what's that for.

@mmarfil @frank The only problem is we went through all this before, browsers got on board and various solutions were created only to be dropped when 'social’ became the new shiny. I'm not convinced the major players will want to retread old ground.

Colin Walker writing about issues subscribing to RSS:

While RSS readers are making a bit of a comeback in certain quarters there’s no doubt that, as Sameer puts it, “subscribing to feeds definitely has fallen out of parlance.”

RSS is more than a decade old now, but explaining it to mere mortals still hasn’t really been solved. Podcasts apps are also using RSS technology in the background, but they usually have a directory of podcasts which gives you an easy way of subscribing in the app. This solves a lot of problems for average users. Out in the open web, you have a feed URL and you need to know where to paste it. It’s a big UX problem, but I’m not sure it is even solvable. We can build walled gardens or create a directory of blogs with a built-in RSS reader, but in theory, they still lock you into a service. As a blog author, I still have to figure out the technical aspects of the IndieWeb and as a blog reader, you also have an obligation to find out how to follow blog over RSS. In this process, you can find a balance to lock yourself into a walled garden or choose something else which you can control, but give up some convince along the way.

@colinwalker The major players can go play with themselves, for all I care.

There has to be a better way to subscribe to sites. While RSS readers are making a bit of a comeback in certain quarters there's no doubt that, as Sameer puts it, "subscribing to feeds definitely has fallen out of parlance." It's not just that sites need subscribe buttons again, but that using them should not be akin to a dark art. As Dave initially said, echoed by Frank, the social networks have made following easy - reading, writing, following, it's all within the same UI. That's what makes micro.blog unique, it has that familiar social feel but you are actually invisibly subscribing to people's RSS/JSON feeds when following them. The timeline is a glorified feed reader with integrated posting and social elements. That's fine within the confines of a service like micro.blog but what about on the open web when hitting "follow" isn't handled for you? "Remember when all the apps supported RSS? Browsers, email clients, everything!" It used to be so much better but, even then, implementation differed. Chrome just shows us the XML, Safari lost its "subscribe" feature, Firefox seems more feed aware but it's all still unintuitive. Some platforms allow you to set your default feed reader to "open in" - others don't - but this still needs you to understand what feeds are, how they are consumed and choose a reader. There needs to be a way to handle subscriptions on the open web like following a person on a social network. But how? Any solution would require everyone to get on board with compatible options for what most see as an antiquated technology. Perhaps it needs something new. But what? Are browser developers going to reintroduce native subscription options? Doubtful.

There has to be a better way to subscribe to sites. While RSS readers are making a bit of a comeback in certain quarters there's no doubt that, as Sameer puts it, "subscribing to feeds definitely has fallen out of parlance." It's not just that sites need subscribe buttons again, but that using them should not be akin to a dark art. As Dave initially said, echoed by Frank, the social networks have made following easy - reading, writing, following, it's all within the same UI. That's what makes micro.blog unique, it has that familiar social feel but you are actually invisibly subscribing to people's RSS/JSON feeds when following them. The timeline is a glorified feed reader with integrated posting and social elements. That's fine within the confines of a service like micro.blog but what about on the open web when hitting "follow" isn't handled for you? "Remember when all the apps supported RSS? Browsers, email clients, everything!" It used to be so much better but, even then, implementation differed. Chrome just shows us the XML, Safari lost its "subscribe" feature, Firefox seems more feed aware but it's all still unintuitive. Some platforms allow you to set your default feed reader to "open in" - others don't - but this still needs you to understand what feeds are, how they are consumed and choose a reader. There needs to be a way to handle subscriptions on the open web like following a person on a social network. But how? Any solution would require everyone to get on board with compatible options for what most see as an antiquated technology. Perhaps it needs something new. But what? Are browser developers going to reintroduce native subscription options? Doubtful.

@colinwalker @vasta the alternative is that m.b makes a browser app that lets people subscribe to any feed. If someone feels like commenting, a popup comes that says, "you can make a free account on m.b to comment, which allows 20 free original posts per month, and paid after that" But is that fair to m.b?

@colinwalker @vasta thinking about this, an obvious solution is to support a cross-browser in-browser RSS feed reader that one links to on our sites instead of just dumping the RSS feed link. The more universal its use gets, the easier for non-geeks to get used to 'subscribing' to feeds.

@nitinkhanna That would work. ?

I know this isn't what you're after, but have you thought of adding email subscription? Some people (especially those who don't know what RSS is) prefer that. I think it's good to offer both.

In the meantime, you could also add a short tutorial about how to use RSS on your subscribe page for those who want to learn.

@colinwalker are we thinking along those lines now? I bet Manton isn't!

@nitinkhanna I was talking about the in-browser solution.

@nitinkhanna @colinwalker @vasta Interesting discussion! I do want to see improvements here. I thought the rel subscribe idea might be the basis for something too. (Micro.blog sites include a link for it.)

It's certainly an option, I'm still mulling things over as to exactly where I want to go with it.

@colinwalker the in-browser solution can be very easy. We just need to agree on an in-browser app that we all can then direct traffic to. Losses? No sync, no mobile, some have fallen out of development, etc.

@manton I see the rel subscription on Aaron's site, but it seems very hacky. Perhaps it works perfectly with RSS readers? But like I said to Colin, it would be infinitely better if that button were to work with microblog, or an in-browser RSS reader.

@nitinkhanna I would imagine a new service specifically designed rather than a current solution.

@colinwalker I have half a mind to put up a rather lame PHP tool that would let you use that rel-subscribe thing and pull feeds on the fly...

@manton Hmm, I’ll have to take a look at that, I wan't aware it was a thing. Thanks.

@nitinkhanna @colinwalker @vasta In lieu of that, as an interim solution I'm wondering if the way with the least friction is to have a Feedly subscribe button that'll automatically add the site to their feeds (and/or set up a new account via their web RSS reader). I prefer Feedbin but I suggest Feedly since it is free and seems to have the tools to make it easiest for users to use/subscribe to on the fly. (P.S. At the moment the Feedly subscribe button is reporting an error, I've reported it to Feedly as I know it's worked earlier).

@solari my problem with that is exactly as you mentioned. Should it be feedly or feedbin or some other? Why not have a page called "Follow me" with all these links on it? I removed everything like that from my WP blog because most people who know RSS have some way to quickly get to my feed. I know it's a bit of a cop out.

@nitinkhanna I only suggested Feedly because of that easy to use button, it's free, and it uses their Google/Facebook, etc. account (if preferred) to set up a new account on the fly and has decent web-based reader and apps. I'm thinking what is the least friction to get them in the door?

@nitinkhanna That would be interesting to see. I need to dig in to how it actually works.

@solari good point! Yeah, we need to reduce fiction as much as possible!

@nitinkhanna @solari It might be worth investigating an agreed-upon widely-used page template for indie blogs that both gives the reduced friction option and the option that involves more work (i.e. reading about RSS, seeing the links to the feeds). There could even be a link to a website that acts as the source of information for this page template; something like how Derek Sivers got the whole Now page idea moving.

@simonmumbles hmmm. So like a simple English page for the Indieweb wiki? // @solari

@nitinkhanna @solari Yep that'd be a good place for it.

@nitinkhanna @colinwalker @manton I liked the feed:// protocol alias to http that some used while ago. It’s not semantically great, but it works. Any app that can read feeds can register a handler, so people with feeds are covered. JavaScript (not great, but works) can detect when there are no handlers and you can direct people to a page with explanation or whatever you want. The contr is are in hands of app developers, site owners, and end users, instead of the big boys (aapl, goog, Mozilla)